並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/be/podcast/ep109-%E7%A7%91%E6%8A%80%E4%BA%BA%E8%81%B7%E5%A0%B4%E8%A1%9D-%E5%A4%A2%E5%B9%BB%E8%81%B7%E6%A5%AD-%E7%A9%BA%E5%A7%90%E7%9A%84%E6%96%9C%E6%A7%93%E4%BA%BA%E7%94%9F-%E7%82%BA%E5%B0%87%E4%BE%86%E7%9A%84%E5%A4%A2%E6%83%B3%E7%B7%A8%E7%B9%94%E7%BF%85%E8%86%80-%E8%AE%93%E5%A4%A2%E6%83%B3%E5%9C%A8%E7%8F%BE%E5%AF%A6%E4%B8%AD%E5%B1%95%E7%BF%85%E9%AB%98%E9%A3%9B-%E5%B0%88%E8%A8%AA/id1485503209?i=1000544196196&l=nl